Posts by Cold Steel

47

Why would Jehovah wait so long?

by schnare in

jehovah's witnesses and many other religions believe jesus will return or has returned (invisibly .

Cold Steel

“Jehovah's Witnesses and many other religions believe Jesus will return or has returned (invisibly).”

Many Christian sects believe in the return of Jesus, but invisibly? Only the JWs believe Jesus will return invisibly. That way it’s easier to prove. It’s like transubstantiation. The emblems change into the literal body and blood of Jesus. Catholicism uses it in place of the gifts of the Spirit. When healings, visions, and speaking in tongues ceased, the church needed to replace them with miracles of their own. So what better way than to come up with an invisible miracle? Every week the priest performs a miracle and he doesn’t have to prove a thing. It’s like the fastest gun in the West routine. Wanna see it again?

“If Jehovah was actually planning an Armageddon, then why is he waiting so long? I think, that it's an obvious fact that the world's population is constantly increasing. Why would you wait so long, which means just having to kill more unbelievers? It's been over 2000 years now. What is he waiting for?”

You proceed from the premise that Armageddon is as the JWs describe it. As recorded in the Bible, it’s not the unbelievers who are destroyed; it’s the wicked. There are many in the world who are good, decent, honorable people, and these will be spared. How do we know this? The Lord says that of the army of Gog (Ezekiel 39) left after the battle (Armageddon), a sixth would be left. In other words, Gog (the “beast”) will be destroyed, and 5/6th of his army. But the sixth part will be spared. Why? Are we to assume that they’re Jehovah’s Witnesses? Or that they’re “believers”? No. When Jesus returns, a large part of the world will still have not been taught about Christ. But many will be honorable people. When Jesus returns, it will be his glory that destroys the wicked — for no man can see God and remain in the flesh unless he is quickened, as Moses was quickened when he saw God face to face. This same glory will only destroy the wicked on the earth.

As to why the Lord is waiting so long, he really isn’t. It only seems long to you. According to the scriptures, the Lord created Earth in six days. This isn’t 24-hour days but six eras. Similarly, the earth’s existence is divided into seven “days” (with each day being a thousand years). Since the Lord finished his work and rested on the seventh day, the earth’s temporal existence finishes on the seventh thousand-year period which is the Millennium. We say it will be a thousand-year period of peace, but it’s really not an entire millennium. Jesus returns in the beginning part of the Millennium and then establishes peace. So since Adam, we are still in the end part of the sixth thousand years. At some early part of the Millennium, a war is launched against Jerusalem and Jesus appears in the heavens and delivers the Jews from their enemy. It is then that Gog is defeated and the Millennial reign is instigated. At the end of the Millennium, there is one more Satanic rebellion. It is quickly put down and Satan and his angels are cast out for eternity. At that time, death and hell are destroyed, the judgment completed and Jesus delivers the glorified earth to his Father. Thus, it was determined that mankind would continue through seven millennia.

34

I think people want to believe in an Armageddon

by dgp in

the end of the world (aka "this system of things") has been predicted to happen "soon" many times.

in my own lifetime, and not being a jw, i have been warned that the world would end like six times already.

harold camping predicted one end of the world twice only last year.

Cold Steel

“ Some of the prophecies remain unfulfilled. Also, it did not happen within the generation of the first disciples. Perhaps Jesus was wrong. ”

Well, either Jesus was wrong or we misunderstand the context. Christian apologists maintain that Jesus was speaking of the generation in which the sun was darkened and the moon was turned to blood. Additionally, there were many unauthorized changes that crept into the subsequent manuscripts. The apostles clearly did not believe that Jesus’ return would be in their lifetimes. They knew, for example, that Jerusalem would be destroyed and the Jews scattered among the gentile nations. They knew that after many years, the Jews would be recovered and brought back to their ancestral homeland. They knew of other prophecies that had to be fulfilled, including the battle of Armageddon, or Gog and Magog. The book of Revelation was not to be fulfilled “shortly,” but John’s intention was that the events in his revelation would begin to be fulfilled shortly. And those events did begin to be fulfilled, but not in totality. He wrote of two prophets, or witnesses, who would be called to defend Jerusalem using the power of God. After being slain, their dead bodies would be left in the street for three and a half days. Then life would enter back in them and they would be resurrected and caught up to meet the returning Jehovah, or Christ.

After Jesus was resurrected, he spent 40 days with his disciples. What did he teach them that he had not taught them in mortality. Other manuscripts say that he taught them the “mysteries” of the Kingdom of God. What those were were not recorded, but believers could conclude that he taught them, among other things, the prophecies that would be fulfilled. Knowing the prophecies that still remain, I can say that the Second Coming of Jesus is still aways off. And though the Jews are still returning and Israel has been reestablished, the great earthquake has not yet happened nor has the sun been darkened and the moon turned to blood. The Jews have not rebuilt their temple and the “beast” has not revealed himself.

Thus, I’m convinced that Jesus was not “wrong,” nor did the apostles believe that the return of Christ was imminent. People who make the charge that the apostles thought Jesus’ return would be in their lifetimes do not take prophecy into account. I’ve heard some fairly well educated people say that the apostles did harbor that belief; however, they tend to be ignorant of Christian eschatology. Many preterists say that Jesus did fulfill his “return,” but they’ve never told me how that fulfillment came about.

45

What leads a person to think they are inspired by God?

by jwfacts in

there seems no end of people claiming to be inspired.

there are numerous holy books claiming to have been handed to their writers by god.

these days a person writing their own holy book is likely to be met with scepticism (unless you are a scientologist), so people tend to claim to be inspired to interpret older holy books.

Cold Steel

God spoke through prophets anciently. Now it's just okay to be "inspired" because it requires no visions, no angels, no witnesses, and no miracles.

William Cullen Bryant, in Picturesque America (1872), writes: "Roger Williams, however, continued to be [pastor of Providence’s first Baptist congregation] for only four years, when he withdrew, not only from his official relations, but also ceased any longer to worship with his brethren, having come to the conclusion that there is 'no regularly-constituted Church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance; nor could there be, until new apostles were sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming he was seeking.'"

W. Clark Gilpen writes: "In this manner, Williams strongly contrasted the church of his own day, a church scattered in the wilderness, with Christianity in its authentic form. He believed that the glorious church of the latter days would bring the godly out of the wilderness by repristinating the doctrine, discipline, and spiritual authority of ancient, apostolic Christianity. This primitivism constituted a characteristic emphasis of his piety; the goal of God’s providential plan for his church was the precise restoration of its original pattern, and Williams now awaited the apostles whose preaching would bring that plan to realization."

Ellen G. White professed visions and revelations, yet though she was reported to have done miraculous things (like sitting in a chair and challenging the strongest man to pull her up), she had no co-witnesses of her visions. And when she died, she left no successor. Herbert W. Armstrong also claimed inspiration, but nothing else. Catholicism bears no similarity to the ancient church; neither do the Jehovah's Witnesses. The only Christian sects that claims a restoration of apostles is Mormonism and various pentacostals. And Alexander Campbell claimed that the authority of the scriptures was enough to restore pristine Christianity.

The JWs claim inspiration, but deny revelation. How can inspiration come without revelation? Others, like Harold Camping and Ronald Weinland, claim to be prophets, but their set dates for the return of Christ have been consistently off. You can get ordination certificates off the Internet. Just pay a small fee and you can start your own church. And the Bible Students started their own church, but who ordained them?

It's always puzzled me that the Witnesses on my doorstop have always bemoaned the "manmade" churches of the day. In what was was their church not manmade?

34

I think people want to believe in an Armageddon

by dgp in

the end of the world (aka "this system of things") has been predicted to happen "soon" many times.

in my own lifetime, and not being a jw, i have been warned that the world would end like six times already.

harold camping predicted one end of the world twice only last year.

Cold Steel

No, I cited scripture to win the argument (Ezekiel 38-39, Isaiah 11, Psalm 85, Zech. 12-14, Rev. 12-16). That preterists can do naught but insist they have found fulfillment shows they are in many ways deslusional. I have debated preterists before and it's like debating someone from the Flat Earth Society. As the author of said article stated:

Starting from the premise that Jesus cannot possibly be wrong, Preterists invented an imaginary fulfillment. To Preterists, all these amazing events already occurred! They treat it as an historical occurrence despite the total lack of evidence that it has! And despite what verse 30 says about all the tribes of the earth seeing his Second Coming, an event that would shine from horizon east to horizon west (V.27). No culture on Earth has any record or recollection of these events, amazingly. Not very helpful, is it?

Yet Preterists confidently assert the reality of events that lack even a trace of substantiation. This must be classified as delusional thinking, and delusional thinking is one of the principal attributes of psychosis. (It would be saner to conclude that Jesus was plain wrong, but that’s an impossibility for them. Psychotics cannot let go of their delusion.)

I cited just a few scriptures that preterists are helpless to find fulfillment for. To think that Jesus' return came to pass by 76 A.D. is absurd. When did His feet touch upon the Mount of Olives and create an earthquake? When did He deliver Jerusalem? In 70 A.D. He abandoned the Holy City. And it goes on and on.

34

I think people want to believe in an Armageddon

by dgp in

the end of the world (aka "this system of things") has been predicted to happen "soon" many times.

in my own lifetime, and not being a jw, i have been warned that the world would end like six times already.

harold camping predicted one end of the world twice only last year.

Cold Steel

What type of preterism are you speaking of? I find that preterists are wholly lacking in substance. When you ask them when a prophecy is fulfilled that obviously hasn’t been, they go off in completely different directions and cannot be nailed down. The scriptures I cited are examples. I agree with the author of an article I read recently who stated that preterism is a form of mental illness. I’ve never been able to get anywhere in a discussion with a preterist.

18

What do you do when you find yourself flip flopping on doubting?

by marriedtoajw in

i've never once ever considered that the jw's were right about anything, slight exaggeration but you know what i mean, until fairly recently.

i think i can see how people get attracted to the jw's.

i've posted here about my struggles with my wife, well things have gotten much worst as many of you seemed to indicate might happen.

Cold Steel

I don’t know. When it comes to family and someone is subverting the patriarchal chain of command, I don’t see a problem. Information is power and nations routinely spy on each other, even friends. In this case, you have a spouse who may be (or likely is) engaged in undermining her spouse. I’d think it would be in anyone’s best interest to know where the subversion is coming from and who’s involved — especially if the church is involved.

Richard Nixon didn’t get in trouble because of what he had on the tape, but what was missing from the tape.

18

What do you do when you find yourself flip flopping on doubting?

by marriedtoajw in

i've never once ever considered that the jw's were right about anything, slight exaggeration but you know what i mean, until fairly recently.

i think i can see how people get attracted to the jw's.

i've posted here about my struggles with my wife, well things have gotten much worst as many of you seemed to indicate might happen.

Cold Steel

Some of the things you have going for you are these: 1) you’re still the breadwinner of the family, and not only do you provide the grub, chances are you also provide the add-ons, like health insurance; and 2) you still most likely carry some weight with your daughter and may have some remaining with your son.

You’re right in the middle of things at this point. You have your paternal uncle on your side and I strongly recommend that you use him to connect with your son and work out some agreements. If your wife is getting her health insurance through you, it’s probably a good bet that she’s not going to let you slip through her fingers — despite her animosity. But it sounds as though your relationship is spun out of moon beams, at least with your wife.

Now my next piece of advice is going to be exceedingly controversial, and you’ll need to check the laws before you do anything; however, it’s worth a shot.

While you’re away, see if you can set up a recording device somewhere in a discreet area where you can tape personal conversations between family members. Yeah, I know this is going to be walking the edge, but the information gleaned may actually benefit you and it could help prevent your being figuratively sucker punched, if you know what I mean. I don’t know what state you’re residing in or the local laws, so check it out with your attorney. You most likely can’t afford a private investigator, so to find out where you stand with your family, you may have to do some surveillance. There’s a reason why nations spy on each other and when your wife just clams up and goes hostile, you need to begin watching your back.

Just my two cents. Ten minutes at a Radio Shack and you should be in business. You may also want to record telephone conversations depending on the law and your need to know what’s going on. In my view, the tactics regularly employed by elders of the congregation would more than justify it!

But be careful. I remember a friend of mine used to double date years ago and he and his buddy would stop at a convenience store. As they left the girls in the car, they activated a small cassette recorder and would go inside, pick up some drinks and kill some time. Later, they’d listen to the recordings! I never found out what info they gleaned, but later his fiancée got in on the act. (He called her the “Lard Queen,” even though she was quite attractive. It had something to do with an honorary title out in Idaho.) Anyway, the information they got was quite candid and frank.

It might work for you, who knows? Opinions??

34

I think people want to believe in an Armageddon

by dgp in

the end of the world (aka "this system of things") has been predicted to happen "soon" many times.

in my own lifetime, and not being a jw, i have been warned that the world would end like six times already.

harold camping predicted one end of the world twice only last year.

Cold Steel

What about biblical prophecy in general? Just because the Jehovah’s Witnesses make huge eschatological errors when they rewrite prophecy does not mean that the real biblical prophecy won’t take place. Daniel and Isaiah have made some of the most breathtakingly accurate revelations of any prophets who have ever lived. Read Daniel 53 and try not to think of Christ, for example. Every single facet of that chapter has come to pass, nor does it require any stretching or spiritualizing of the text to get it to fit.

That’s why the WBTS tries to change the rules in mid-stream. In prophecy, spiritual elements can be used; however, the sum of the prophecy is always literal.

I’ve tried to raise the clarion call about this here in the past, but JWs and those coming out of the religion don’t seem to know enough about prophecy to realize they’ve been duped. And those who do know about prophecy don’t tend to become ensnared in the religion to begin with. Thus, most of my posts on prophecy are met with silence.

Prophecy isn’t easy to muster, and there are so many divisions of it that many don’t know where to begin.

If religions teach about a “pretribulation rapture” you can pretty much avoid their prophetic insights. True, the “beast” or “antichrist” will arise; however, there is no indication that it will hold sway in all the world. The prophecies may indicate that, but remember, biblical prophecy is Jerusalem-centric. So when it says that an earthquake will be felt throughout the world, it may or may not happen. Or it may be in Jerusalem only.

I don’t think the antichrist’s reign will extend to what is now the United States will happen because we understand certain terms are hyperbole. When the scriptures thus speak of the Romans taxing all the earth, we certainly don’t believe they taxed the ancient Mayans, do we? Well the same thing is true with prophecy.

The more one knows about prophecy, the less one will believe JW/Watchtower theology and prophecy.

But if you're a Jehovah’s Witness, and you can't explain the prophecies found in Daniel 2, Daniel 9 [verse 24], Ezekiel 37-39, Isaiah 11, 53; Psalm 85; Zechariah 12-14; Matthew 24; Revelation 12-16, then you need to begin hitting various religions and making sense of them.

Don't be alarmed if they don't all teach the same things; the similarities will be greater than the differences. After awhile, you’ll see the wisdom of God in the prophetic guidance of the ancient apostles and prophets beginning to gel and within a year you’ll be wondering how you ever believed in the scriptural exegesis of the Watchtower Crowd!

In fact, if anyone knows of any internal publications that deal with these and other prophecies, please let me know. Thanks!

34

I think people want to believe in an Armageddon

by dgp in

the end of the world (aka "this system of things") has been predicted to happen "soon" many times.

in my own lifetime, and not being a jw, i have been warned that the world would end like six times already.

harold camping predicted one end of the world twice only last year.

Cold Steel

One of the biggest problems with the Jehovah’s Witnesses is that they have no understanding of what Armageddon is or what the prophets have said about it.

First of all, Armageddon is not a worldwide conflagration, but a local event that takes place just north of Jerusalem. According to the prophets, a powerful warlord identified as “Gog” will sweep down from the countries of the north. He also will be strongly allied with the nations “round about” Israel. At the time these prophecies were written, Jerusalem wasn’t surrounded by nations that hated them. But now it is.

Ezekiel records the word of the Lord to Gog in chapters 37-38. It’s a personal warning and based on the language, it’s clear that Gog will be familiar with the prophecy. He just won’t believe it. Zechariah also chronicles the battle of Armageddon in chapters 12-14. He prophecies that in the latter days that Jerusalem will be a “burdensome stone” to all people. Even so, He will strengthen Israel and the Jews and will miraculously deliver them. As the city of Jerusalem is on its last leg, Christ will descend from the heavens fulfilling the prophecy of Acts 1. His feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives on that day and an earthquake will split the mount, creating a great valley. The Jews will flee into the valley and will be delivered, but when they see the wounds in his hands they will say, “What are these wounds in thy hands,” and He will reply, “Those are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.” They will then realize their Messiah is Jesus, and Zechariah says the nation will go into deep mourning and lamentation.

Chances are, most Jehovah’s Witnesses are totally ignorant about these prophecies. They’ve had so much false doctrine drilled into their heads that they are completely unaware of these prophecies. They think Armageddon will be all the forces of good arrayed against all the forces of evil. In Nordic mythology, this battle was called Ragnar ö k and it would end with the complete destruction of both good and evil. But in Hebrew theology, Armageddon is the final battle of this age. And it will have nothing to do with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Again, read Ezekiel 38-39 and Zechariah 12-14. The battle of Gog and Magog described in Ezekiel will be repeated at the end of the Millennium and will be named after the conflict at the beginning of the Millennium. Ezekiel describes only the conflict at the beginning of the Millennium, not the one at the end. How do we know this? Because the Lord said “it shall be in the latter days,” a reference to the days preceding the Lord’s Millennial reign. Also, after the premillennial battle, it will take the Jews seven years to clean up the weapons and fuel left over from the battle. That will NOT happen at the battle at the end of the Millennium. That conflict will be very brief and will spell the end of Satan and his angels.

18

What do you do when you find yourself flip flopping on doubting?

by marriedtoajw in

i've never once ever considered that the jw's were right about anything, slight exaggeration but you know what i mean, until fairly recently.

i think i can see how people get attracted to the jw's.

i've posted here about my struggles with my wife, well things have gotten much worst as many of you seemed to indicate might happen.

Cold Steel

I'm not sure I understand your situation fully. Is your wife a JW? And is her attitude towards you based on your refusal to tow the line in spiritual matters? And will your son even talk to you about it? Also, how long are you going to stand for the ill treatment your wife is heaping on you? She apparently has lost all interest in maintaining your relationship with her and in maintaining the family’s financial solidity.

You’re working 12 hours a day working and she refuses to look for a job. She’s also completely disinterested in whether you keep your home.

This is a grim situation, and it’s tragic that your daughter is sensing this discord. Have you considered taking this to the church in an effort to work something out? And what happens if you lose your home?

What is your wife’s attitude towards you and why do you think she is unwilling to work? Do you think she wants a divorce? Or is it that she’s overwhelmed and has simply given up? There’s clearly a hostility there on her part and it’s rapidly being internalized by your son. Just how much is the church involved in all this?